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Message de thibautgn posté le 26-06-2012 à 19:39:02 (S | E | F)
j'aurais voulu savoir s'il vous plaît pourquoi pour certains verbes comme "say" "tell" on n'utilise pas "have" au passé composé ?
et donc au lieu de dire "he has said" on dit "he said" (soit en français: "il a parlé")
Y a-t-il d'autres verbes comme cela à part "tell" ?
Modifié par lucile83 le 26-06-2012 19:42
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de bernard02, postée le 26-06-2012 à 19:51:26 (S | E)
à mon sens, il manque un peu de contexte dans ces questions. En effet, si vous faites allusion à des actions passées et révolues,il ne faut pas utiliser le present perfect (auxiliaire HAVE + participe passé) mais le prétérit.
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de gerondif, postée le 26-06-2012 à 19:53:41 (S | E)
votre énoncé est faux.
Si on a besoin d'utiliser un present perfect, un temps anglais du PRESENT qui indique qu'une action passée a des conséquences présentes, ALORS on utilisera l'auxiliaire HAVE avec say , tell et des milliers d'autres verbes.
Je t'ai déja dit cela des centaines de fois!! I have already told you that hundreds of times !!!
I have already said that once but I am going to repeat it: ..............
Ah ! You have said too much or too little ! Spit it out now !! Where is the treasure ?
Toute action datée requiert le prétérit, que le français préfère traduire par un passé composé plutôt que le passé simple jugé trop littéraire.
Il m'a dit le secret hier soir: He told me the secret last night.
"Au revoir" dit-il (passé simple) "Good bye" he said.
say s'utilise pour citer des paroles:
"Good bye" he said.
"I will come" devient: He said that he would come.
MAIS s'il y a une "oreille" dans la phrase, si vous parlez à quelqu'un , si vous racontez quelque chose à quelqu'un, alors "tell" intervient.
He told me his secret.
"I will come" devient: he told me/you/him/her/us/you/them/ that he would come
et l'action étant implicitement datée, elle est au prétérit, sans has, mais ça n'a rien à voir avec say ou tell
He replied that he wouldn't come.
He retorted that he wouldn't come.
He answered that he wouldn't come.
He suggested that he wouldn't come.
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de lucile83, postée le 26-06-2012 à 21:05:50 (S | E)
Il vous serait utile de revoir les bases du prétérit et du present perfect.
Le passé composé n'existe pas en anglais.C'est un temps français et on ne peut pas comparer 2 langues.
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de iamironman, postée le 27-06-2012 à 20:51:07 (S | E)
In English, we do what we want. (Je regrette que mon francais n'est pas parfait.)
"He has said" est correct et "He said" est aussi correct. Nous utilisent "he said" parce qu'il est plus rapide dire que l'autre, alors sur un roman ou sur en parlant, l'action est plus rapide. (Jack said, "Hello,") mais ne dis jamais (Jack has said, "Hello.") C'est tres longue et nous ne l'aimons pas! Cependant quelquefois, je voudrai souligner le temps que j'ai dit quelque chose, donc je utiliserai "has".
Pour example, "I have told you over and over again" ou "He has never listened to me." Parce que ce indique que le probleme est continuel et a eu lieu sur le passé.
I hope that helps you!
Modifié par iamironman le 27-06-2012 20:54
Ce n'est pas vrai. Comparons maintenant les deux, P.C. et past tense. (Wow, c'est dificile quand je parle médiocrement. Hmmmm...)
Deux pars: avoir (has/have) et la verbe avec le PC fin.
Deux pars: has/have (avoir) et la verbe avec le Past fin.
Similaire? Oh, oui. Facile? Peut-être. Maintenant...quelquefois nous effacent "has/have" pour il faire rapide et concis. Nous entendons le Past tense fin, donc nous n'avons pas besoin de "has" (avoir). "He has walked" = "he walked."
Ne vous laissez pas confondre. Vous comprendrez le difference quand vous parlez avec locuteurs natives. C'EST important: HAD n'est HAS/HAVE. Si vous voyez "had," alors la verbe est pluperfect ou plus-que-parfait.
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de gerondif, postée le 27-06-2012 à 22:28:50 (S | E)
Hello,I am iron man (It sounds like a triathlon name)
You say the same thing as we do from a "I live my language" point of view.
You say you often use the preterit because it is shorter and faster and you use the present perfect when you want to show that something that happened in the past continues or has present consequences. So do we.
You say that you prefer "he walked" to "he has walked" because it is shorter and more commonly used. Fair enough, but chances are that when you say "he walked", you don't want to dwell on that story too long, so , you just state that he walked home from the party.It is a fact, an explanation, a statement, fullstop. But it is also nailed in the past, hence the use of the preterite.
Imagine you are at home and you ask how your friend came home from the party. Somebody replies: "He walked". End of story.
Now if your friend has just arrived, out of breath and exhausted, you might want to say:
Look ! he is exhausted because he has walked all the way home,it was 5 miles !
Now I agree that you could do as usual and disregard the present consequences and just say:
Look ! he is exhausted because he walked all the way home,it was 5 miles ! or
He walked all the way home, so he is exhausted now !
After all, the person you're speaking to doesn't care about your grammar and he or she will get the message just as well. Your sentence is not wrong, it just means you attach more importance to the fact than to the consequences.
Foreigners who learn English will learn the rules and be able to dissect a sentence sometimes better than the natives. Often, foreign French teachers have taught me things about my own language in a surprising way.
Look at your first sentence:
In English, we do what we want.
You are a native speaker, so I have no reason to question that sentence probably commonly used.
Yet, I have a tendancy to teach or use:
We do what we like / we do as we like / we do as we please / (We use either tense).
I would keep "I do what I want" for somebody who is angry and opposes me, but it is just my view of things.
"We do what we want" must be used all over the planet and who am I to contest it ?
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de lucile83, postée le 27-06-2012 à 22:33:25 (S | E)
Hello iamironman, ...funny name for a young girl...
I should have written in English, which would have been better for you.
When I say that the 'passé composé' does not exist I speak of the name itself, the word 'passé composé'.
I explained to my students (for about 35 years) that it was called preterite or past simple when it was dated and they agreed.
Nevertheless, thank you for trying to explain the use of Passé Composé and Past Simple in French; that was quite interesting.
To go on with the previous message by gerondif,I can give you an example.
A few days ago I was talking to an English man,aged 80/82 I don't know exactly,saying something about English grammar,and he asked me what the subjunctive consisted in. He never learnt anything about this grammatical point. As we were in a discussion with other natives about another subject, I quickly told him it was like the past tense, and went on with the discussion. I saw him smile and he said 'ohhhh...I see!'.
He had just discovered something in the grammar of his mother tongue. Amazing, isn't it?
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de iamironman, postée le 08-07-2012 à 20:01:08 (S | E)
(I am Iron Man comes from a movie.)
It's amazing what you learn by studying another language. I have studied Latin for four years and French for a year, and I learned a lot. For example, we place prepositions at the end of our sentences, which is WRONG. You can't even do that in French or Latin. I might say, "Who are you talking with?" when I ought to say "With/to whom are you talking?" Unforunately, informal and incorrect English is becoming normal in the US, and I assume also in the UK, so speaking correctly can make others think you are pompous.
We do what we want: I am guilty of referencing pop culture all the time. You could say this phrase to any English speaker under 25 and get a laugh from them. It's a quote that most young English speakers are familiar with...(or in proper English)...with which most young English speakers are familiar. It might be more pugnacious than "We do as we like," but is has a different connotation among young speakers. Sorry! It might seem rude without the context.
Since I'm a native English speaker, it's strange for me to dissect a sentence. I can understand your story about the 80-year old man. We all learned our language by example, by trial and error, and since few of us ever had a teacher who made us focus on the elements of our language, we struggle to retain the integrity of it.
The subjunctive is interesting in English because we don't have as much change as in French. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the subjonctif is an "e" ending which changes the verb in a very very very very hard way when it comes to irregular verbs.
je: e ..... ons
tu: es ..... ez
il: e ..... ent
You actually change the way your verb ends. We just add an auxiliary verb and use the infinitive, basically. "I go ---> I wish that I could go." We're finicky (pointilleuses) about that auxiliary. (Would, could, should)
Réponse: Passé composé/aide de lucile83, postée le 08-07-2012 à 22:46:06 (S | E)
I remember a series with that name, you are right.
The French subjunctive is a little more complicated than adding an -e at the end of the verb.It depends on the kind of subjunctive.
Of course we can use modals in English, but I answered that 80-year old man about one example using 'I wish I were'.I didn't/couldn't develop the discussion.
The subjunctive is a difficult tense even for a lot of French people, but it is so interesting! as well as Latin which gives people the opportunity to understand French better.I studied Latin for 6 years and I liked it very much.
I am afraid we are quite beside the point now
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